Questions About Versioning

[Radish]

This is my first post in the forum so hello there. My needs as far as backing-up goes are pretty simple. Last Sunday of each month just backup my data to USB HDDs. I have been doing this manually for years - because I didn't know any better - and it was hard-work. Then I stumbled across the possibility of using software to automate the backing-up. Then I stumbled across FFS and, after a day of working out how to use it, in a simple way, I have to say I'm very impressed. Great software. (That said, the documentation is in serious need of being expanded and improved. Hence I'm here looking for information which should really be in the documentation.)

My settings for backups are:
Variant: Mirror -->
Category: Don't know what they are yet, so nothing set there.
Action: Don't know what they are yet, so nothing set there.
Detect Moved Files: Ticked
Delete Files: Versioning Naming Convention: Time Stamp

My questions regarding versioning:

Q1: Am I correct in assuming that if using Versioning then the versioning files should be being written to the target drive and not the source drive?

Q2: In the path box for versioning is it necessary for the user to enter the name of a folder to put the versioning backups into? Which of the following two options is correct for the path?

[USB-1 DOCUMENTS]\VERSIONING
or
[USB-1 DOCUMENTS]


My reason for asking this is that, during testing, I hit once series of backups in which FFS complained that it couldn't delete a versioning folder because it already had files in it. When I looked I found that what I had was a folder titled VERSIONING in the root-path of the drive (where it should be, according to the path I had set) and a sub-folder inside that also titled VERSIONING. That sub-folder contained sub-folders and files and this was what FFS was baulking at (it seems). I have no understanding at all how that sub-folder (and its contents) got there. I have even less understanding why FFS was trying to delete folders/files in a Versioning folder. Why is that happening? Isn't that kind of defeating the purpose of Versioning?

[Plerry]

Q1: No, the versioning folder can be located on any accessable/writable drive.
However, the versioning location should not be anywhere in the source(left)- or target(right)-location.
Mind, that the left and/or right location do not need to be the root of a drive, but can also be a (sub)folder in a drive.

Q2: Most likely, you violated against the above restriction on the versioning location.
If you want [USB-1 DOCUMENTS] to contain both your backups and previous version(s),
your right location should e.g. be [USB-1 DOCUMENTS]\Backup, and the versioning location [USB-1 DOCUMENTS]\Versioning

[Radish]

Okay, Plerry, thanks very much for the response. It seems a little clearer now though I'm still scratching my head over why FFS was trying to delete previous versioning folders and files. I'm thinking it shouldn't be trying to do that at all. In my mind it defeats the purpose of versioning.

The only reason I can think of for usefulness of this deleting of versioned files is if the user specifically chooses to keep (say) the latest half-dozen versions of Versioning files. So when six versions of a previous file versioned exist then FFS deletes the oldest one and then writes the new versioned one in its place (so that, again, only six versions of a versioned file exist on the disk). Is it possible to set FFS so that it manages versioning in this (automated) way?

[Plerry]

Assuming your versioning location was residing inside your right location,
and you are using the Mirror sync variant, that is very clear.
The Mirror variant deletes all files and folders that exist in the right side location,
that do not or no longer exist in the left side location.
As the versioning folder does not exist on the left side, it will be deleted from
the right side.
And then the versioning feature will (try to) create copies of the versioning folder
and its content in the versioning location.
Seems to be exactly what you described earlier: a folder Versioning inside the folder
Versioning, etc ...

And all of the above is exactly why the Versioning location should not be
part of or inside the left nor right location.

[Zenju]

And all of the above is exactly why the Versioning location should not be part of or inside the left nor right location.

The next FFS version will show a warning if the versioning folder is contained in one of the two synchronized folders (and has not been excluded via filter).

[Radish]

Thanks, Plerry, that is a bit clearer and things are starting to gel a bit over how Versioning might work. I'll have to mull it over for while though. (I'm finding that conceptually I'm needing a whole new way of thinking about backups and how to do them, that is so different from my old way of thinking in doing manual backups. I even discovered a flaw in the way I was managing checksums files for manual backups; a flaw that left me wide-open to missing possible file corruption in my manual backup routine. Gosh! Won't happen again now though. Thank you and FFS for forcing me to think about how backups need to be done.)

Could I repeat my last question? Is it possible to set Versioning so that it keeps only, say, the six most recent versions of versioned files?

[Radish]

The next FFS version will show a warning if the versioning folder is contained in one of the two synchronized folders (and has not been excluded via filter).

I'm finding that a little confusing, Zenju. So question is:

When dealing with the Mirror variant are you implying that it is possible to write a VERSIONING folder to the right side (contrary to what Plerry is saying) but specify a filter so that the sync routine won't try to delete that VERSIONING folder? But will write new versioning files into it?

How would an exclude filter for the VERSIONING folder work if the VERSIONING folder and files were on the right side?

(God I hope my questions make sense.)

[Plerry]

I did not even dare suggesting the option of defining the Versioning location to be contained in (one of the) Left or Right location(s), and then excluding it by means of a filter, as I consider that to be kind of a pathological approach.
Nevertheless (now Zenju raised it ...):
If your right location would be [USB-1 DOCUMENTS], and your Versioning location would be
[USB-1 DOCUMENTS]\Versioning, you would need to add \Versioning\ to the exclude filter.
If your right location would be [USB-1 DOCUMENTS]\Backup, and your Versioning location would be [USB-1 DOCUMENTS]\Backup\Versioning, you would (again) need to add \Versioning\ to the exclude filter.

[Radish]

Thanks again, Plerry. Mmm...? I'm stuck again. I need to check this concept of exclude filters and how they are being applied.

I think I can see that if one was doing a Two-Way sync then, yes, the exclude filter settings would apply to both left and right. I can see that (assuming I'm right in my thinking).

However, what seems to be being implied is that in a Mirror sync the exclude filter settings still apply to both left and right. Am I right in thinking that?

Also, I'm curious, why do you think keeping versioning files in one of left or right location(s) is akin to being a "pathological approach"? Also are you implying that keeping versioning on both left and right locations wouldn't be "pathological"?

Lastly, could I repeat an earlier question. Is it possible to setup versioning so that it only keeps, say, the six most recent files of versioned files?

[Plerry]

The include and exclude filters apply to both the left and right location(s).
This applies to all sync variants (Two-way, Mirror, Update).
Note that filter definitions are always relative to the root of the left and the right location,
and thus are never absolute (e.g including a drive designation)

> Also, I'm curious, why do you think keeping versioning files in one of
> left or right location(s) is akin to being a "pathological approach"?
Particularly if you are using a Mirror or Update sync in a multi-user environment, both the target (normally: right) location and the versioning location require to explicitly block write access to those locations for all "normal" users other than the user under which the FFS sync is run. Otherwise "normal" users might, intentionally or unintentionally, delete or make changes to the files in the target and versioning location.
(If you are smart, you even do the same in a single user environment.)
Next to that, your source (left) location contains your "most recent" files; the versioning location contains previous versions (if any), and are obviously not most recent,
Both of the above is why having your versioning location inside your source (left) location seems "pathological".

Having it inside your target (right) location seems illogical, as that location contains "backups" of the most recent version of the source location (at the time the sync was run).
If you need a previous version, you visit the versioning location. As the most recent previous version of a file is stored there under the same name as the file in the source and target location, it is best to create the biggest awareness that it concerns a previous version and not the most recent version. Using a separate location helps in creating that awareness

> Also are you implying that keeping versioning on both left and right locations wouldn't be "pathological"?
I did not make a statement to that extent or with that intent (nor to the opposite ...).
Having versioning locations on both the left and right sync location is not supported by FFS, and in my view that makes a lot of sense.

> ... Is it possible to setup versioning so that it only keeps, say, the six most recent files of versioned files?
No that is (in my view unfortunately) presently not an option.
It is either just the last previous version or all previous versions.
There has been an extensive discussion in this forum on that topic some time ago

[Radish]

Thanks for your patient responses to my questions, Plerry. I'm starting to understand versioning a bit better now. Have even done some testing and it seems to be working fine.

[SteveH99]

I'm doing an "Update", using Versioning, going from the full "D" drive on left, to full "H" drive on right, have the Versioning folder on the right, and put in an exclude for the versioning folder /FFS-Old_versions/. Yet I keep get error message:

The versioning folder is contained in a base folder.
The folder should be excluded from synchronization via filter.

Versioning folder: H:\FFS_Old_versions\2018-06-17-15-18
Base folder: H:\
Exclude: \FFS_Old_versions\2018-06-17-15-18\

I've also tried excluding:
\FFS_Old_versions\%DATE%-%hour%-%min%\ but that also gets same error message

What should I do to exclude the versioning folder on the target?
Thx.

[SteveH99]

I think using this exclude has solved my problem:
\FFS_Old_versions\*

Does that make sense?
Thx,
Steve

[Zenju]

I think using this exclude has solved my problem:
\FFS_Old_versions\*

That's correct.

[SteveH99]

Now using version 10.2 under Windows 10 and it's still getting the error. Please see attached screen shot files. What should I try?
Thanks,
Steve

[Zenju]

Your exclude filter is incorrect as you can see in the warning message.

[SteveH99]

What is the correct exclude filter?
Should I use: [PIX-VOL2]\FFS_Old_versions\%DATE%-%hour%
What do you suggest?
Many thanks,
Steve

[Zenju]

The filter phrase shown in the warning message is the correct one.